Making the GRID: A Podcast for Aspiring IMG Subspecialists

Ahmed: Hello and welcome to this GRID application podcast. Today we're going to shine the light into the journey of paediatric subspecialty training application process in the UK. My name is Ahmed Elmakki. I'm a paediatric trainee. I'm also an international medical graduate, and I'm planning to apply to the next round for GRID application. And today I'm joined by two amazing colleagues, Oge and Ehi. Both are successfully navigated the competitive GRID application process. You want to tell us a little bit about yourself? Oge: Hi, my name's Oge. I am a post successfully applicant for GRID, working in neurology. Ehi: Hi, my name is Ehi. I'm an ST5 paediatric trainee, and I will be starting my GRID in gastroenterology in September this year. So, it's lovely to be here. Ahmed: Excellent. In this podcast, we are going to walk through your real-life experiences from the early planning stages to collecting evidence and the process of crafting the application. And also preparing to the interview. And I think for our listener, whether you're just starting to consider the GRID application or if you are getting up to submit it soon in the next round, I hope this conversation will be full of practical tips, honest reflections and encouragement. And I think it's also especially important if you are an international medical graduate. Okay. Shall we dive into the questions? I have a few questions for you both, but I think I'll direct it to Oge or Ehi, but just feel free to jump in and give more answer. Shall I start with you Oge. So you are ST8, I believe, right? Oge: Yes. Ahmed: Could you walk us through your journey in applying for paediatric neurology GRID training? What was the application process like? And how and when did you make a start? Oge: Thanks Ahmed. I had been a paeds trainee here in the UK. I'm an international person myself, but I'm not an international graduate. But had been saying for some time that I'd like paeds neurology. So had been looking at, projects. And I was lucky to have a neuro job in my ST3 year which I felt was really helpful towards the application. But I think on reflection, looking back I would give people the advice to start as early as they can in thinking about it. And trying to take part in things that can help you to show commitment to whichever specialty it is that you are interested in applying to. So even if you don't have a job in that specialty, not everyone will get a rotation in the specialty that they're interested in. Seeing whether you can speak to that team and see if there are projects that you might be able to be part of or audit. And that will help you to show that commitment. And you can also use them in your application as well. Yeah, just like I mentioned, not everyone had the opportunity to have a job in their specialty interest area. But you can organise things like taster weeks and shadowing. And that gives you an idea as well of what the job will be like day to day. And that can also shine in your application as you'll see the practical elements of the job as well. And if you can, if you have a friend that's gone through it already or you can have a look on the website as well. To have a look at the application, I'd say even before you are planning to apply, maybe even a year or two before. And that can help you see if there are any gaps on your CV that you might want to try and fill. So that might be things like teaching, any management or leadership positions that you might be able to be part of or take part in even before the application process. So yes, I think start early. That's my advice on reflection. Ahmed: I think you already touched a little bit on stuff I was about to ask in the second question. So, what are the different domains in the application and what are the key aspect help you to stand out in the application process? Oge: I think Ehi, is going to talk to us a little bit more about this as well. Some of the key aspects, break it down on the written application. Include things like teaching opportunity, teaching experience, research, leadership and clinical experience as well. And I think just thinking through the clinical cases that you've seen or that you've been part of that have changed your practice and what your key learning points have been from that case. I think were really crucial to the application because I think often what they want to see is what you've learned and how that has changed what you do day to day. And then applying that within the clinical questions. And I think what helped me to stand out - I was really lucky in my job. I was working in a district general where. They had quite a large epilepsy presence and I was able to do a big audit, which I led on and worked with junior colleagues to support my juniors. And I was able to do this work and present this at a regional meeting. So I think just having those opportunities or looking for those opportunities, meetings, posters, conferences, anything that shows that you've taken an interest above and beyond your day to day, I think can be really helpful. Ahmed: I'll probably ask you follow up question on this. Should you focus on specific area, for example, focus on research and audit, or should you give equal amount of time to cover all the domains? What do you think the smart things to do is? Oge: It's really tricky because obviously, we are all limited for time, isn't it? You don't have time to do everything. I think looking back now having done the application process, you will be scored in all the domains. So I think it is important to make sure you've done something. But if you know there's an area that you are stronger in, if you've got good research background then big that up. Show that up in your application and put your good papers in, and really bring that out when you come to interview as well, and that will help you too. Ahmed: Ehi, my next question is for you. How did you collect the evidence in these different domains? How long did it take you to do that? Ehi: Thanks, Ahmed. I think I would answer that, but also build on what Oge has said because I think it's really important when you talk about focusing on one particular domain, and this can be really interesting. So just for people to be aware, currently for the written application, the domains are slightly different for the interview, and I'll explain what I mean. So for the written application, you have the clinical domain, you have teaching, you have audits or quality improvements. You have leadership, and you have publications and, or research. So that could also include poster presentations, conference presentations, conference, oral presentations. And so that's the domains for the written application, which is very slightly different because all of those things you can highlight in your interview. But in the interview, they are now looking at what has inspired you? So your motivation to do this specialty which is one big domain, which you can use everything that you have written in your written application to showcase. But they will be scoring that differently. They also would score your clinical abilities, and this is not just in terms of how you have managed patients historically. This would be a real test of how you would manage a patient that would be given to you. So a kind of scenario-based, assessment. Then they would ask you about QI, by QI, I mean quality improvement, audits or research capabilities. And lastly, there is now the clinical leadership domain, which again, is another scenario-based assessment. But in this scenario, they're not assessing how you manage a patient clinically. They are more assessing how you manage your patients as a team, how you work as a team, and all of that. So when you look at those domains, I was lucky to have done a specialty post at my ST1 level. I had about two to three years to start preparing because when I did gastro at ST1, I knew I loved gastro. So I told the consultant about it and they guided me on what I needed to do. But I would say that in that time, I focused so much on clinical domains. Which, looking back was a problem because then when it came to start writing the application, I realised that, oh, I don't really have anything to use for my leadership. So I think, when you are starting out, you need to be looking at all the domains. At that point, you need to be thinking about what are the strong points I have at the moment for research, for teaching, for leadership in my clinical experience and how can I build this between the time I am starting to prepare and when I would be applying. So depending on how much time you have, if you have already been privileged to have done research and all of those things, like Oge has said, you don't need to focus too much about that. But you still need to think about conference or poster presentations because in your interview it's going to make you sound smarter if you have gone for a recent conference in your subspecialty to present something, rather than just things you've presented in your university which can be okay, but it's going to score you more points if they are more relevant to the specialty. So that's why it's very important to think about these things. And that then determines how long you would need between when you decide to go for GRID and when you actually apply. Ahmed: Okay. And I think probably I wanted to ask you in the same question, like, for me, I looked at some of the domain, and I looked at the short listing scoring and I try to see what's the highest marking and then go from there . What would score me high and then go back and try to do that. Do you think that's a good way to approach it? Ehi: Absolutely. I think that it's very crucial . You have to look at that shortlisting criteria. And I think that's the key bit when you're writing your application. You need to make sure that the points you are bringing are going to score you the best points. Let's use an example of teaching for instance. If you have done a journal club at regional teaching. That would score you more than even if you presented a teaching before the CMD of your hospital, because local presentations would only score you so much. Whereas regional, even if it's just , among trainees. And you have presented to, the Prime Minister that came to your local hospital and you did the teaching, it wouldn't score you more. So you need to think about what is going to give me the highest score and so it has to be very pragmatic planning, like how do I get the highest score based on the shortlisting criteria? Because, I feel like people who're marking it are almost robotic. It's just about whether you can score the highest point. They don't care about how beautifully you've written the examples, it's just, is it regional, is it national? Is it international? And just score it that way. So you really need to be thinking about, yeah. So you have to look at that shortlisting criteria. Ahmed: Yeah, I think it's a must before doing anything, I have to look at the shortlisting criteria. And I think my next question probably more relevant to you, Ehi, because as you mentioned, in the shortlisting application it's slightly different from the previous year. It's more simplified and ask for a very, a small amount of word and very concise. Should be very concise. So I think for the written part, how did you keep it brief and still convey the key message? For me that was slightly difficult to do. Ehi: For me, I think I first of all looked again at the shortlisting criteria and looked at the keywords. So I'm going to use an example for teaching. So it would say, if you designed a teaching program, you would, for instance, score one mark. If you designed and delivered the teaching program, you would score two max. So rather than explaining and saying, oh on this day I gathered people and I taught them about this, I just would say, I designed and delivered a teaching about this to this group of people and got this feedback. Okay. So I think it's trying to make sure that you have those. Keywords in the application. Obviously it needs to be something, so it's not just copying the keywords from the shortlisting criteria. It's about making sure that it's something that is believable. So, if I say I designed and delivered I can't be saying I designed and delivered the curriculum for postgraduate training for paediatrics, because that's not believable. Unless I would then follow it up by saying, because I was a committee member of the RCPCH training committee or something like that. It has to be believable. But I think that I was able to use that. So I looked at what's the keywords, what do they want to know? And I put those things. So if I was going to say, I presented at a regional conference. Or I presented at the international conference. I made sure that those words were in my statement, and the format I followed was, what did I do? What did I learn and what was the effect? And I tried to keep it as simple as that. Something else that helped me to keep it really simple was that one of my consultants, she's really good at summarising. So sometimes I would write lots of words. And I sent it to her and she would just say, how about you remove this bit because if you do this, you are repeating yourself. So I found that really helpful. Getting somebody to have a look at your application. And there are people that are really good at summarising. So when you've said 10 sentences, they can make it into one sentence. So I think you should find those people, if, whether they're consultants or trainees who can do that, and they can just help you to summarise things. I think that was helpful for me. Ahmed: In the same question, what's the role? Is it important as Ehi mentioned, what's the role of proofreading or having a trainee like you who went through the process or a consultant to look at your application and support your application? Oge: Yeah. I think, like Ehi was saying, I would say crucial. Once you've written it yourself and you are happy, start getting other people to read it through. Get someone with a keen pair of eyes and time to make the changes. And sometimes it's good to ask someone that, you know, is brutal and will pull it apart because this is, not time for niceties. Yeah. So you just want them to be honest and also like Ehi was saying to make sure you're saying the crucial things. I know I'm someone that can waffle. So, is the message lost? Is it not clear? And then at the start getting those feedback you might have to take it back to the drawing board, but going back and making those corrections and then sending it on to the next person. I think there's obviously a lot to be said for making sure that your voice is in it and your style as well isn't lost. And obviously take every feedback and make sure you are happy with it as well. But I think the more people you get to read it, the more it'll take shape and the clearer it will be. So I think, definitely people can see things or have a different perspective that we might not have when we're reading the application for ourselves. And they'll be able to understand, or make sure the message that we want to get across is coming through. Ahmed: And in the same point, how many persons should you ask? Is it like sometimes it's too much and more confusing? Ehi: I think that for me personally, I think maybe not too many people. Because people have multiple opinions and it can be confusing for you as well. So I think definitely prioritise people within your specialty. And also sometimes I think we make the mistakes of saying, oh, it has to be consultants. You need to remember that, just because they are consultants doesn't mean that they are attuned with what the process is like now. So sometimes I feel like, probably you should be listening to someone who has either just gotten into grid or a grid trainee because they are more familiar with the process. A consultant will give you a broad overview and say, well, I don't think this is a current problem of the specialty, or this is something that would score you big marks. But then that trainee would actually be able to say, well, this is how to actually write it to get the best points currently. So I think not too many people and also choose who you are sending it to. They should be relevant and be able to give you good. Ahmed: That's important point. So my next question for you. How do you get involved in teaching and leadership opportunity? I think this is maybe, more especially relevant to IMGs as well, you can contribute to this question, because for me as an IMG, my experience was more focused on clinical experience, and then you come to work in NHS and you try to fit in the system and learn the system, but how do you get involved in teaching and especially leadership opportunities? Ehi: That's a really good question because, as an IMG, I particularly struggled with it, and just like Ahmed you were saying, I was really focused on clinical, and even my consultant at the time, I mentioned I want to do good at ST1, she asked me to get more placements in gastro to get more clinical experience. But then, towards the application, I found out that it was good because it made me love the specialty more and it made me sure that this is what I want to do, but it didn't score me on things like leadership and teaching. So I would say, for that you actively need to find those opportunities. And two things that will help is. One. Networking. Okay. And mentoring. By networking I mean having either friends or groups that you belong to where people regularly share those sort of opportunities. It was only recently I realised that our RSPCH, for instance, has loads of trainee roles. That they need trainees to fill in. So there's a trainee rep on examination committee, there's a trainee rep on audit committee, there's a trainee rep even on the finance committee. And these are national leadership roles that easily score you good points. But those opportunities, you don't necessarily hear about them when you're just busy doing your clinical work. It's about having people who know about those things. Those things are advertised on their RCPCH website, but you might not see them because they're not very widely advertised. But it's something that you may want to consider doing. Also there are regional opportunities that come up and a lot of the times, particularly us IMGs, we don't really think that I should be the trainee rep, for instance, for my region or even trainee rep in my hospital because you're like, this is just an extra work, what's it going to do for me? But I feel like those are very useful opportunities. So if you are in a placement and they talk to you about, oh, there is an opportunity. If we need somebody to lead on the teaching program for this placement, please take advantage of those opportunities. Because yes, it might be only a local opportunity, but if you want to apply for a national leadership role, that local role would be a useful thing to say, I have done this and I've done it well. So I am fit for this job. And then when you have those national leadership roles, you can then, put it in your application. But even your local roles so being trainee rep for instance, being in charge of a rota, being in charge of education, teaching activities in your local hospital, can be useful points. So that's one thing I would advise that not just IMGs, I think every trainee should be. It's something that we should be competing for, but I know in reality, that a lot of times we actually are looking for people to fill these roles and we don't get volunteers for these things, but it's a good way to build capacity. In terms of the teaching, I think that I would say that not everybody can do a teaching fellowship job. But, there is this shift now, and I don't know Oge, if this is different from your time, but there is this shift now to saying people should have a PG cert in medical education. So they would score you more if you have that qualification. So if it's something that you can do, I think you should try and do that. If you have the time because it gives you an extra point. If you then find that you are even more in love with medical education, you can do a master's in medical education. But I think it helps you not just in your application now, even as a consultant. It actually helps you to know how to teach because a lot of times we think we know how to teach, but we'll be shocked that we don't know how to teach and we've been doing it the wrong way. So it's something that definitely improves you as a person. But it's a big boost for your application and there will be lots of teaching opportunities, medical students need people to teach them. I know that in Great Ormond Street for instance, we have something called the PULSE Faculty. We also have the MRCPCH membership examination team where we ask for people to come and teach on these courses. These are good opportunities to get certified that I have done this teaching. And then you can use this as evidence, but yes, that's my bits on that. Oge: Yeah, exactly. I would've just said, the same thing, just take the opportunities that come. You might feel, yeah, as you're settling in as an IMG that you don't know how to get those opportunities, but speak to your trainee lead within your department at induction. The team will often be saying, we are looking out for people to take on this role. Go for it. Put yourself out there. And they'll usually be able to support you as well as you start out and you'll be learning as you go. So don't underestimate what you can do in that role. And thinking about things like Masters' can be really helpful and there are courses out there, things like Teach the Teacher, they can even get you a point and will hopefully be helpful for your day to day. Ahmed: I think Teach the Teacher in the new application process, it now doesn't give you a mark, but it's still a useful course to do. I think we'll go to the next part which I just have a few questions about the interview itself. Ehi, what was the interview process like and how did you prepare? Ehi: I think it was very stressful. Well, I think practice really does make all difference. And I will say for me personally. So I used to be the kind of person who, I didn't really like all of these group practicing things because I felt like it dampens my confidence. I had a practice partner, every time I practiced, I gave a different answer. Even though I had written a script and there will be that occasion where my practice partner will be like, oh, actually I liked that example that you have just used. And I started to make a mental note of the things that she found really interesting. And I, over time in the course of my practice picked those ones above all the other things. And the other useful thing, I think I practiced up until a day before my interview and the night before my interview, I did a mock interview with one of my consultants and she said something that I then used in my interview actually, because I just resonated with it and I found that, oh, wow, actually this is a really useful problem that I can actually relate to it. So that's the good thing about practice. It's not about trying to memorise a script I don't think that's the useful thing, that's the benefit of practicing. It's the fact that you are sharing your ideas, that you think are the best things you can bring up, with other people and people are giving you feedback on those things. So yes, that was what it was for me. So obviously on the interview day it was like doing the same thing I've been doing for the last few weeks anyway, so it wasn't much different. And because I had also done mock interviews with different sets of consultants. So these were consultants that I was, I would say a little bit scared of. So I was nervous in those mock interviews anyway. I was kind of used to the stress that I then encountered on the day of the interview. So I would say for your practice, don't run away . Don't be afraid of flopping in front of your consultants. Pick the most scary consultants to do your mock interviews with because if you can deal with that, you'll be able to deal with your interviewers on the day of the interview. Ahmed: I find it more intimidating to do a mock with a consultant I know in comparison to someone that I don't know. Ehi: Exactly, if you can actually sell, if you can perform well before a consultant, you know. And because they know you, they will actually tell you. So they might just even say, oh, I know that you've done this, so why are you not talking about it? You know? So they actually would give you ideas that you probably haven't or you have overlooked in your preparation. Oge: No, I agree. I agree. And I think I would say practice, not just practice makes perfect, practice, practice, practice makes perfect because it is really nerve wracking and you know what you want to say and then somehow it comes out completely differently and you're like, why did I say that? But I think just having that process of doing lots of mocks I found really helpful. And it gives you an idea of what the interview structure will be like. Things like timing, how long you have for each question, I think was really crucial for me. And even having a structure, because I think you don't want to come in and kind of mind splurge. You want to have some kind of structure in your mind of how will I approach this kind of question or yeah, how will I approach the interview in general. And there are some really helpful books and online resources that can give you structures that you might approach an answer with things like the STAR acronym and there are different books that can go through that, but essentially just having a way that you would approach a question can be really good. I'd been given advice before of just , even before you do a mock, have a think of what questions you think may come up. So, Ehi mentioned the different domains before, things like your motivation, why do you want to do this speciality? And have a think yourself. What has made me excited? What makes me engaged? Why do I want to go and work in this area? Are there new advances that I'm really keen to be part of, or new research that I want to make headway in? And I would, come up with maybe five bullet points for each question you can think of. And then on the day there might be a similar question, a slightly different question, but you can pull on those bullet points that you've had. And even if information falls out of your head, you hopefully have at least three bullet points left to talk about. So that was advice I was given. And yeah, just practice with as many people. You can practice with other trainees that are going for the interviews as well, and you can give each other feedback. So I found that helpful too. Ahmed: And I guess my next question is, how do you shine through the example during the interview? And I think also I have another point that I think for me, as a medical doctor, I'm always being trained to work as a team and, we did this rather than I did this. So I find sometimes that's a bit difficult and I have like constantly remind, especially in the interview and shine and put the light on what you have specifically than rather as a team. Ehi: And I think that can be quite tricky because you want to be confident but not overconfident. Because something someone had said to me is that the consultants are looking and saying, is this the person I want to work with for the rest of my career? Because picking a great trainee, it's obviously picking your colleague in the future. I don't know that anybody would want somebody who appears to be overconfident, but you also need to be confident and like you said. The 'I's. It's using those power verbs, like active, like I did this, I developed this, I led the team. I think it comes with practicing. A lot of us start out as being, oh, it's my team. I wouldn't take the glory for it. But unfortunately in this interview, you really need to, and actually we do the work. It's not like we are making it up. . We actually do the work. We just always say, well, it's not me, it's my team. But at this occasion, they want you to actually be able to be confident to say, I did this, I developed this, I led on this. But I think it comes with practice. And practice can help, even the most humble person to be able to bring up those things. And I think that can really help you achieve that. I also think that, again, coming to practice, and that's why I say practicing is really important, is that you may have lots of things that you think are really be star examples, but like I had said before, in the course of practicing, people may not actually think that those are really star examples. And then you have to have a deeper think and say, okay, what else have I done that I can talk about more and make more relevant? And I'll give a personal example. So for my research question, research audit, I had done a really good audit, which was related to gastro. But because I had published a paper, I kind of felt like I should talk about my publication in my practice. When I was practicing, I talked about publication, but my practice partner had commented that, well, you haven't really said so much about this paper. You've just said you've published a paper. But I didn't listen to that feedback. I went to the interview and I still went to talk about this paper, and I mean, I'm lucky I got the job, but I think I scored the lowest in my research and they said because it's not related to gastro, and they didn't see how I was able to link that back to gastro. So that again, is the importance, like you might think, oh, well, I've published a paper, so that's enough for me to get the job. But when it comes to the interview, that's not enough because you actually need to say, well, yes, you published the paper, but what did you learn in the process of publishing the paper? How are we sure that you know about research? Because you've published the paper . And those are the things you would gain when you practice. So I think in the interview, shining true is being confident and being able to state exactly what you've done and actually being able to show that you're a reflective doctor. So I've done this great thing. But in the process of this, I faced this challenge or I have these successes, but this is what I have learned and this is what I will be able to use this learning to do when I get into the specialty. I think that really helps you to shine through if you're able to put it in that structure. Ahmed: Okay. I think my next question, Oge. I think we have already touched up on the this, but we talked about practicing partners and doing mock, but is there's any specific resources, courses or website that can help you with the interview preparations? Oge: There are lots of courses out there, ones that will take your money. So just very expensive courses, feel free to look at those and they are good. You don't have to do all of them. If you find one that you feel is reasonable that you want to go for, then I think it's always beneficial. But also look out at your specific specialty. I know for neurology, the BPNA, the British Paediatric Neurology Association, they organise, a webinar for people that are applying to go through the process with them. And you can also reach out to them as well, if you want to be part of mock interview processes. And there are also potentially other groups that may be organising mock entries as well. So, the soft landing organisation, which works with IMGs, have been doing a yearly mock interview evening. And I think people have found that really helpful. That's free. It has been free. Hopefully it stays free. And you get a chance to practice under time and get feedback as well. And there are books out there as well that go through as I was saying before how to approach different questions. So yeah, look out. There are things out there that can be really beneficial. Ahmed: I think the courses, it probably might be good, but , I think it's very similar to , if you have a practicing group or if you're doing lots of mock at the end, it's the same process of someone will ask you a question, you answer, and then you get the feedback and you repeat the process again and again. Ehi, our last question would be more relevant to you. As an IMG, I know there are unique challenges and a lot of competition. What advice do you have for IMGs who are applying? Ehi: I think, again, I know I've mentioned about networking, but I really believe that finding a mentor if you can, really makes a lot of difference. Or if you can't get a mentor, because that requires one-to-one, you can really network. I registered with the British Society of Peadiatric Gastroenterology and that helped me to get to know people. Helped me to get to know the GRID trainees who had done the process, and I was able to get more contacts. I was able to see what the problems were in this subspecialty. It just made me more aware because if you are isolated, you can't progress in science generally. And even in terms of getting things to present at conferences, a lot of the times it's because you've networked with people. So, many of the posters I presented, it's because a consultant had said, oh, Ehi, I have this interesting case, I think we should write it up. But that's only because they knew I had the interest in going for the subspecialty. If I was just in the posting like everybody else, they would probably not highlight that to me. So for me, I think that network really made a very key difference for me. And for us as IMGs, because we haven't trained in this country. We don't really know. I mean, undergraduate training because, Oge, correct me if I'm wrong, but medical students, we've gone to conferences and I see medical students presenting at conferences, presenting very confidently at conferences , even having oral presentations so it's something that they're very used to, but we just have to start picking up on this if we've not done this back in our countries we've come from. So, I think it's something we need to learn when we come here. And we need to be aware that a clinician is not just somebody who is just, between the wards and clinics, but you have to be well-rounded as a clinician. You have to be thinking about how you're developing all that things. Many of my colleagues in training have taken time out to go do PhDs while we were busy, just fixated on the clinical work. And then when you come to GRIDs, there are some specialties that it's an unwritten rule that you have to have a PhD. It's not really compulsory, but there is that kind of competition. Most of the people come in would have PhD. So, I would say really networking, getting to know the system, getting to know what people are doing, and why they are doing what they're doing is really important. So, let me talk about this PhD thing. So if somebody is going for oncology, they know that's one subspecialty, for instance, that is really research heavy. They are making loads of advances. They really would want to take a GRID trainee, that has a great deal of interest or experience in research, and you can't blame them for that. So, if you are competing against people who have done a PhD, the best thing you can do for yourself is, even if you haven't done a PhD, is to make sure that you have done a lot of other research things, whether it's at your local level, or you've applied to be an associate principal investigator for a research program. So you can also show that, okay, well I haven't got the PhD, but I have been able to develop my interest in research by doing this and this. But all of these things you wouldn't know unless you network with people, unless you know what's actually happening in the sub-specialty. So that's why I think that as an IMG, it's one unique thing. We don't really know how or we may struggle with networking. And also, the other thing that we may struggle with is how to be confidence in communication, or even your accents, which can be a problem because for me I found that sometimes I would say things, but people don't hear me, and because of the way I've pronounced the words. But in your interview, it's important that you speak slowly, so that they actually hear what you've said and. I then realised that, okay, I need to summarise after I've answered every question. So it's something I learned after doing all my mocks and everything, because I would say things, some people will in the feedback say, oh, you didn't say that, you know, so probably because of the way I've pronounced it, they didn't hear me. So I found summary is really helpful for me. So when I answer a question, I say, to summarise everything I've said. I've talked about this. So communication can be a problem, but also knowing what to do in the first place can also be a problem. So I think those are unique things that would overcome by practicing and by practicing. Ahmed: Yeah. Okay. That's very useful. I think that's what brings us to the end of today's podcast. A huge thanks to Oge and Ehi for generously sharing their experience and insight. As well. And for everyone listening, I hope their journey have inspired you and prepared you to take the next step toward your own GRID application with confidence and preparation and support. And I think if you find this helpful, please share it with your colleagues who might benefit from it. And thanks. Thanks again.