Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the GOSH Learning Academy.
Hello and welcome to this our four series of GOSH Pods Goes Green. In this series, we'll be exploring plastics in healthcare. I'm Nicola Wilson, the Head of Sustainable Education and the project lead for the Born Green Generation Initiative at Great Ormond Street Hospital. Today I am really pleased to say that we are joined by Jo Frame with from Healthcare Without Harm Europe, and with a few of our own team here, Imogen Stringer and Alice Knight.
And we have come together to discuss the Born Green Generation Project. Jo, to begin with, can you tell us a little bit about you, your role at Healthcare Without Harm Europe and the overarching goals of the organisation?
Hi. Yeah, lovely to be here. So I'm a midwife by background and I've lived in London for over 10 years now.
I am working in southeast [00:01:00] London, and then I've, for a long time had a professional interest in healthcare sustainability. So that led to me being the first midwife enrolled on the chief sustainability officer's clinical fellowship with Greener NHS. And that gave me a fantastic opportunity to develop knowledge and skills on system level leadership.
And then from that, and that prompted me to apply for this role. And I joined Healthcare Without Ham Europe in the autumn of 2024. As in my current position which is Green Perinatal Clinical Office there for Born Green Generation. And for me the role, it primarily puts me as the point of contact for our hospital partners and the clinical expert for the project and some wider projects and initiatives throughout the organisation.
So Healthcare without Harm Europe. We're the European branch of a global organisation and we have branches in the US and Southeast Asia as well. And we exist ultimately to create sustainable healthcare [00:02:00] sector that does no harm to people or planet. The organisation we're comprised of thousands of hospitals.
It's very much network based with healthcare leaders and healthcare professionals. And yes, some members right across Europe and partners across the globe. And ultimately the goal of the organisation is to prove that it is possible to deliver that high quality care in a way that's sustainable environmentally and financially.
That is a lovely description of Healthcare without Harm Europe because sometimes when you are trying to make a change in a hospital you sometimes feel really alone and quite siloed. So to have those wider organisations bring you together is actually having those allies. It, it adds a bit of magic to your work and it, it really does help.
And I've noticed in that community, people are so open to sharing projects as well. There's no sort of, this was my, you know, [00:03:00] I started this, therefore it, it's just a really open environment, isn't it? And it's lovely to see people like you leading the way with it. So thank you.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's been really being involved in a project and seeing different practises from different countries, even though in Europe, we consider things to be really quite similar, just the nuances from one country to another, even from one region to another. Yeah, as a clinician myself, it's been really interesting to, to, to see and to hear how other people and other hospitals work.
Amazing. So can you tell us and introduce us a little bit more to the Born Green Generation and what's the vision and mission of the project?
Absolutely. So it is a massive ambition to protect current and future generations from the harmful effects of certain plastics and chemicals and as well as that reducing unnecessary plastic waste. And the project is revolved around, the first really focuses on the first 1000 days which is from conception to a child's [00:04:00] second birthday.
And we focus on this timeframe because it's the most vulnerable time of life. And it is where there is the quickest rate and speed of development, both physically, cognitively, neurologically, and because of that, babies are at the most vulnerable as well. And if we have got unwell babies, especially thinking about those who are in NICU settings, they are have additional vulnerabilities and additional risks.
So then as evidence is. Emerging around the health risks of certain chemicals and certain materials that really commonplace in hospital settings. It's basically asking is there a better way? And that absolutely is. So yeah, we've worked with for clinical partners, GOSH, being one of them, of course, and to identify products there.
Really frequently used within healthcare, during maternity care and neonatal care and early paediatrics [00:05:00] that have safer alternatives. Ultimately, so some of that has been through identifying different products and implementing those changes. And some of it has been through just making sure the items are being used to their maximum efficiency and, considering that behavioural change and working with staff to have that better understanding as clinicians, not only about the proper function and how to more efficiently use the products, but also the considerations of the health risks that can come along with some of the, the chemicals and materials that are in involved in the, in the materials.
Yeah. In the in devices that we turn to every day without even a second thought.
Yeah, you kind of nail it there. It's, it's really complicated, isn't it? Taking it from those plastics and chemicals to the idea that, you know, you need to be able to just pick something off the shelf when you're giving that clinical care.
Mm-hmm.
And we are the people [00:06:00] behind that trying to make it happen, I guess. Alice and Imogen, can you introduce yourselves and kind of tell us a little bit about yourselves. I know that you're both educators, but how have you come to get involved in Born Green Generation? What's that looked like for both of you?
Go for it. Alice, let's start with you.
Hi. Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. So I've been a practise educator at GOSH and a practise facilitator for just over 10 years now which seems like a very long time. I mainly work with the nursing apprentices and pre-reg students.
But working on the Born Green Generation project has been a huge eye opening experience for me as well. I've already always had a strong interest. In sustainability. So it's really good to put that interest into kind of some practical work. And with working with students often of a younger generation, you're often thinking about how healthcare is gonna develop into the future, what healthcare looks like in the future, what the world looks like in the future.
So there's a really nice kind of link there [00:07:00] where I can kind of link the two together. And also engaging with the learners and finding out. Different things that they want to change. They might bring some fresh ideas to the table, so it's quite nice to be able to combine the two there.
How about you, Imogen?
So, hi. Yeah, I'm Imogen. Thank you so much for having me. I am, as Nicola said, as a, I've been an educator for about six years I guess actually. But I'm a nurse by background and I spent the predominance of my career in critical care doing a lot of my education role in critical care. And that was kind of where some of the sustainability elements kind of came into.
I was able to kind of pair together my professional personal interest for sustainability. It was when I became an educator that, that really kind of. Solidified, I guess. And then that led me to apply to the same fellowship that Jo's just described. So we were both on the Chief Sustainability Officer's clinical fellowship together working with the Chief Nursing Office.
Yeah, brought me to then apply for the role at GOSH being a part of the Born Green Generation [00:08:00] Project. Which I think one of the things that was really quite special about the Born Green Project is before that a lot of my sustainability had been, although looking at planetary health quite broadly, a lot of it is
carbon focus. So a lot of like the, the metrics that you might be trying to rate your projects against would be predominantly carbon. Whereas this has been a really nice eyeopener or like a challenge to stretch a little bit further to think about what the other elements are to be considering when we're talking about sustainability and in this sense, obviously microplastics and toxins.
So it's been a really nice kind of way to develop that. Thinking a little bit broader when we talk about sustainability.
I love that. It's so much more, isn't it? The planetary boundaries give us such a better illustration of what's going on within the environment. And like one of my conversations recently with the Waste Manager, she was worried about saying to me, you know, we really need to work on how, where our pharmaceuticals are put within the waste streams and stuff because they do need to go to higher incineration. And she was kind of worried about saying it to [00:09:00] me because she knew there would be a carbon impact. But I was like, no, but, but the bigger impact for us and our patients right now is those pharmaceuticals going in the wrong way stream and being in our environment and thinking about antimicrobial resistance and stuff like that. So it's, such sustainability is not sort of one thing in a line, is it? It's far more complex. I'm really glad that like straight away you hit on that.
That's. It really is. So from like the plastics perspective, we often hear those really alarming headlines. Don't we like those predictions that by 2050 there'll be more bits of plastic in our oceans than aquatic life. And in the previous episode we've just talked to Olwenn Martin, who spoke about the health impacts of plastics, particularly endocrine disruptors.
Imogen, from your experience, do you feel that healthcare professionals really know about these risks and that they're empowered to make changes, practical changes as a [00:10:00] result?
So I think that's a really good question. I think we can't group everybody together in this. I think the sort, the range of clinicians and people's personal and professional interests vary so much.
I think there are. A growing body of people that have really got a, a, a good sense of awareness, but don't often know how to translate that sort of want or want of change into their professional practise. I think that quite often is a balance that's really sort of a, a tight rope to walk in the sense of, I want to do something, but I'm not quite sure how, or if I do have the courage to go and ask, say my ward manager to try and do this plastic reducing interaction on my, on my workplace.
If you get that first. No. That confidence level is easily shut down. And I think that's quite common in the sense of if there isn't a big, you haven't got your fellow people that are passionate with you and you haven't identified them, it's really hard to then continue pushing that in a clinical practise.
So I think there's a lot of will, but there's not always the identified actions or the. [00:11:00] Readily sort of available for people to feel confident to take those actions. I think that's come a long way in the last like five, 10 years particularly. And I think especially in. Healthcare professionals. I think we know we're seeing more and more the patients that come through to us, the problems that we're identifying with them are no longer in those four walls of the four walls of the hospital bed anymore.
When we are looking at how we can help their health and wellbeing, we are looking at the external factors such as the things like climate and health. Those. Sort of intrinsic links of actually to make our patient better is that we actually need to be looking at things around them, like the air pollution and the plastics that they're exposed to.
So I think we are seeing more and more of those links. We can't escape it. We can see the impacts of climate and health around us all the time. So I think that will, and understanding the why is quite prevalent, but I don't, I think there's still slightly more that we can be doing to support others to do that.
But what and how, so what next? What can I do tomorrow? Or how can I actually get. People to come along with [00:12:00] me and not only just understand it, but then also put it as a priority for two. A priority, like to continue. 'cause sometimes it's seen as an added extra, but the link of actually how a sustainability or initiative like Born Green, although we're really talking, talking on the focus of microplastics and toxins here, we know that nearly every other interaction that we do as part of Born Green also probably has.
Financial savings, you've got the triple bottom line aspects that you're considering too. So really being able to articulate that and get people on board in that sense, I think is where sometimes there's a little bit of a disconnect as to, to get the momentum that we sometimes need across the whole of healthcare.
Yeah, you are so right. And I love that kind of really highlighting that disconnect straight away. Alice, you might wanna come in on this because I see the way that you work with, like, the sustainability champions in the hospital, and have you got nice examples that kind of illustrate what image's talking about?
Yeah. There's [00:13:00] definitely a, you know, a lot of fire in people's belly and a lot of people's. Feeling frustrated with various things and wanting to see change. And I think I, I totally agree with Imogen that it, that change is not always the easiest thing, and that's sometimes where the, the support is needed.
But there's definitely a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of people care about these topics. And when, when I go around explaining things to people, you know, there's a lot of buy-in. But what we really wanna do is just make it easier for them. We've got. Lots of great ideas coming out all over the, all over the hospital.
One thing that we've recently implemented on our bone marrow transplant wards, they were using single use foil bowls to take in their oral medications into each patient room. Which didn't, didn't make sense from, from any point of view really. But it was just kind of a practise that had.
Evolved that way and people didn't know that they were able to change things. I think that's one of the key things is [00:14:00] that staff kind of we're so used to following policy and protocol, we don't always realise that actually we can be the policy writers, we can be the people that make these changes as well.
So even just a simple change to move these foil bowls to a plastic alternative, although it is plastic, it is, multiple use. It can be washed and then reused between patients. So we're gonna be saving a lot of landfill. And a lot of yeah, materials that are needed to create the foil bowls.
So that's something that's underway and it was something that the team didn't think that they would be able to implement. But we ran it through infection control and we did a sense check. And actually it's a perfectly, feasible solutions. So that's been rolled out now and is one of many examples of lots of ideas that the staff have around the hospital that they're eager to make changes in, but sometimes they don't know quite how to go about it.
And so it's been really nice to support with those things.
Yeah. And I, I can see how the way you interact [00:15:00] on ward basis means that people are now coming to you and saying, could I do this? Could I do that? And you can see like the brilliant emails this morning, even from some people on our ITU Catriona and Rachel saying, you know, can we get involved with this?
How do we do that? And, and really, like, I see you as instrumental in that snowball effect. Of, of how people have engaged. But I also heard Imogen coin a phrase, or at least I feel like you coined a phrase recently called voluntold because there's some ways of getting people engaged where, you know, they have, like you say, that fire in their belly and they really wanna make a change and you just have to help support them and understand how that can happen.
But I have also appreciated the voluntold approach that one of our genius consultants. Does take occasionally. So I, I think this could be a multi-pronged approach. Right. Jo this is probably a tricky one, but I think you are quite well placed to answer it. I think in the media [00:16:00] recently, we have seen some uncertainty around the research around how much.
Plastic and microplastics is accumulating in our bodies. We know it's out there. We know it's accumulating in the world's system as a whole, and we see those sort of horrendous images across our oceans. But there's the tricky bit of what's absorbed? Where does that end up? What's it look like in our bodies?
How should we as health professionals kind of interpret this uncertainty whilst also taking that precautionary approach to protect our patients?
Yeah, absolutely. The recent media coverage, I think what's important to consider is that there are two different streams of research. There is that kind of more scientific, scientific chemical consideration, looking at how things are affecting health on a molecular level, and which absolutely is really important.
But then when it comes to the actual delivery of healthcare [00:17:00] and disease prevention and wellbeing promotion, we don't necessarily need that level of detail in order to act. So, yeah. So while the subject matter is still within its infancy as I say when it comes to public health messaging we've never required perfect knowledge to act.
And that absolutely is enough research to warrant that there is a change in practise. So, yeah. The recent media coverage, it's highlighted that there can be some discrepancies in the methodology of studies, but what is absolutely not being. Challenged is that there is presence of micro and nanoplastics within the body within various human tissues.
At all stages of life. And then what we do know is that all these plastics, they are made from petrochemicals and many of them during their manufacturing have additives which are endocrine disrupting chemicals, so as EDCs that are [00:18:00] now in the body and have that potential risk to disrupt endocrine function.
Again, thinking about that first thousand days as the systems of the human body are still developing and forming then the risk speaks for itself and it warrants that preventative action. So yeah, absolutely. Again, as a clinician, some plastics are necessary, but it's about let's remove the ones that are not necessary.
Let's remove the chemicals that are not necessary. And so if there are. If they un, if it's a product that is not required in order to provide safe, effective care, let's eliminate it from, let's take it off the procurement list completely. If there are safer alternatives, maybe a plastic free option.
Let's explore whether that can be introduced and implemented. And then again, it's important to also consider that care pathway and personalised care consideration [00:19:00] and that those opportunities are maximised. So a great example, I think I know something that you guys are exploring is that optimised medication administration.
So thinking about if a patient does need a medication and it's just our normal practise to prescribe it and administer it, as in. IV infusion, can it actually be given as injection or can it be given orally? What is right for that medication and what is potentially right for that patient as well? So absolutely just keeping the patient at the centre and making sure that we're giving the safest care possible.
Yeah. And I think that's a theme that comes through time and time again is we are not gonna be able to take plastics out completely. Some we absolutely need. And they have their place. It's like, it's just that question of, you know, picking up each piece and going, do I need this one though? You know, where, how do I streamline it?
Where sufficiency fit. Yeah. Imogen, I know that you and I have bounced [00:20:00] around this kind of complex challenge. Well, I think it's complex because I think we've gone around in a few circles with it, where we're balancing how to reduce plastics overall. So like at Great Ormond Street, we would like to see as overall reduce our plastics that we use and see that reduction in how it goes into our waste streams and everything else.
Also, it doesn't always, that conundrum doesn't always marry with the microplastics and nanoplastics for our patients. Like how have you seen us kind of approach that tension from a systems level versus a healthcare perspective? Have you got any examples you could talk us through?
Yeah. Definitely.
I think, I'd certainly think this answer to this is gonna kind of reiterate a little bit of what Jo just said. 'cause it is such a tension and there's never really, especially in healthcare like a single right answer, there's always more context and nuance that you might not have thought on the firsthand that you have to really think about.
But I think from like a [00:21:00] systems and healthcare perspective, I think something that when you and I are bouncing things off each other, Nicola of what. How are we gonna tackle things is actually stepping back and asking what are we actually trying to solve here and for whom? Because we know that, by reducing plastic is important, but we need to remember that patient safety has to stay non-negotiable.
And I think an example that maybe I'll touch on is the infant feeding is quite a good example of that complexity. 'cause on one hand we know that plastics are everywhere and feeding equipment is in the bottles, it's in the tubing, it's in the storage containers, and there's, we know that there's growing concerns around the microplastics, especially for our children in, the age group that we're focusing on within Born Green. But on the other hand, we know that these systems exist for good reason. We know that they can be sterile, they can be reliable, they can be scalable, and they reduce infection in some areas. So it's not just a simple saying of, as you both yourself and Jo have just touched on, it's not just a sense of getting rid of the plastic, but we need to take a sort of a whole system view rather than a product by product view.
So instead of asking plastic or no [00:22:00] plastic, it's kind of, is this plastic genuinely adding safety in this. In this pathway is it actually just habit or convenience or can we actually redesign this process? Not just the materials, but kind of the behavioural elements that, that go around it. So for infant feeding, for example, it's looking at like the preparation protocols, the reuse of bottle systems that we have, this sterilisation infrastructure that we have, like the bags that we use or even sort of.
The sort of wider upstream decisions about packaging and supply chain. So I know like Nicola, you've worked a lot with some of the manufacturers around infant feeding and really having those conversation as I know Jo with some of the other partners, you've been having those conversations too. So it's not just about, say, just the bottle itself, it's the whole pathway that goes around it.
But I think we can sometimes get quite stuck in that either or systems thinking within healthcare, when it's really kind of a, a both or and problem. And I think. Like actively reducing unnecessary plastic whilst also being honest about the places where alternatives aren't readily available yet.
Some things [00:23:00] we actually just, that might not be able to be something that we can change. 'cause it has, it has its place. So it just means investigating the evidence and the materials and better design rather than putting a burden on the clinicians and the parents to make impossible trade offs at times.
So it's really kind of making that, tension. We are being really honest and transparent about those tensions as we move along things. So I think it's, yeah, just holding that quite openly and prioritising safety whilst designing sort of like the future of where safety and sustainability aren't in conflict.
Yeah. 'cause we know that the stakes are so high if we get that slightly wrong. So I think, yeah, things like infant feeding is really shows a nice one there, but there's so much that can be done even though the, the first instance can be slightly tricky 'cause it's not only just, okay, we'll move from a single used plastic bottle to a reusable plastic bottle.
'cause actually that reusable plastic bottle, each time we heat it up, we're actually causing the higher likelihood of shredding of microplastics each time it's heated up. So it's not a simple trade off, it's really looking at the broader picture.
Yeah. And I [00:24:00] love the way you did it. I dunno if you realise you did it.
You in inflected the way that we're often asked, asked a question as a sort of sustainability team, we are often asked to prove why we should introduce a reusable product. Whereas actually maybe we should be asking people, why are you using a plastic product? So I love the way that you phrased that without, I think even noticing.
I think that's, you know, maybe the way that we need to start thinking. Really, and, and, and changing the conversation, Jo, reflecting what Imogen and I have just talked about, about changing the way you have that conversation. How would you take that beyond the hospital? How should we change our conversations beyond that?
I think, yeah, you remind me of an event that I was, I was just at and something that came up in a network meeting was a comment, and I wish I could actually give credit to whoever it was Who said this? Was that ultimately the science and healthcare, we shouldn’t have to be [00:25:00] burdened with proving the risk and the exposure.
What should be happening is industries should be proving that these various products, these materials are the absolute safest available. So I think that's a nice way to kind of address that narrative.
Yeah, you're right. It takes it, we're trying to do this at every single level, aren't we? It's a change for the patient, a pain change for the way the staff work, the way we procure, but also for the manufacturers that kind of mixes in with the whole design for life work that NHS England are doing.
Yeah. Alice, do you see us kind of embracing, you've talked a bit about how wards and the, the, passion is there on the wards around sustainability and plastics overall. Do you think that that awareness is there around the risk? Do you think it needs to be? Do you think we should take that away from them?
Like Jo's. Saying,
I think it's definitely, it's definitely emerging more now. [00:26:00] Previously it was kind of the focus was always on saving money, wasn't it? And then saving materials and reducing waste. But I think people in their personal lives as well as professional lives are, are just more aware now of the harm harmful nature of plastics and other chemicals that are getting into our bodies through various different ways.
So I think it's really. Although they don't, although we don't necessarily need to know the exact details and the ins and outs, I think it is really, really valuable information to have as to what the effect it can be on the human body. Not to scare people, but to kind of give them that awareness.
You know, it's not just about money. It's not just about waste, it's actually about health, which is the reason that we all came into healthcare, nursing and midwifery in the first place. So it kind of does tie in with people's values as professionals. And I've taught on a few different study days team days across the hospital and some of the statistics and information that I'm giving them, it is really shocking.
[00:27:00] About the, the amount of plastics that are in our bodies. But it also gives people you know, that passion and the impetus to do, to want to do something about it. So I think it's, it's a, a great tool, tool to have and information to use to empower people to, to make better decisions and to come up with new ideas.
So, yeah, I think it's, it's always a fine balance with everything, but I think it is valuable knowledge to have.
You, you hit on something that I find really hard when this comes to like your change model, because we know as educators you can teach and people will retain a certain amount of knowledge.
But one of the things that I feel like the research doesn't yet give us is that story, the patient's story that. That's the bit that changes a behaviour often in clinical staff, I think, is knowing that actually if I take Fred this 18 month old and we expose him in this way, [00:28:00] this is what happens. Like we have the generalised research, and we have these sort of large scale, sometimes quite existential, information that we are sharing, but I don't actually think yet we can relate it to the individual patient in front of us. And I think that makes some of the change that we are asking quite hard of people. Yeah. Thank you for that. I'm gonna kind of change our tack before we dive too far down this rabbit hole.
And as Jo, could you tell us a little bit about the partner hospitals? Who else is out there? Who are we working with for this sort of first three years of the Born Green Generation project. And what have you noticed about that difference between how they approach plastics and sustainability?
Yeah, so we've got four clinical partners that we have collaborated with since the launch of the project in 2023. Obviously yourselves at Great Ormond Street, and then also in the UK. We are partnered with Newcastle then maternity unit in Royal Victoria [00:29:00] Infirmary. The team that are focusing on measures within their maternity service.
And then in France we also have a partner in Angoulême, which is in the west of the country. And they have been implementing changes across their maternity and neonatal service. And then in Denmark as well another partner is Region Midtjylland which is the central region. And the team are responsible for sustainability initiatives across five hospitals.
So they've got, I think. eight wards in total that they manage as a group. So between the four partners, they're all very different. In the care that they deliver, the different sizes from Newcastle, just looking at implementing change on one ward to Region Midtjylland across five hospitals. So it's been really interesting not only to, for us as a central team to kind of see and how the dynamics work within those [00:30:00] different sizes and team dynamics as well, but also considering like the different.
Standards and processes at a national level as well. So things that are very much standard practise in the UK and not in other countries and vice versa. And, okay, so for one example with Angoulême, they have really, their approach has absolutely been focused on minimising toxicity risks. So they have done initiatives that have included like how cleaning happens around the wards.
They've completely eliminated some of the harsh detergents and chemicals that are used for day-to-day cleaning. Obviously. When they have got patients that have got significant infections that need more intensive cleaning, they follow the relevant pathways. But if it is just like a day-to-day cleaning, so their flaws, for example, they've got rid of detergents, they use microfiber, they've introduced some steam.[00:31:00]
Cleaning devices for that decontamination of day to day products, which again, it just means that the chemicals from from cleaning, from detergents, from wipes that are really common place here in the UK that, that residue is not left on products, on the plastic bassinets that part of the cots, for example.
So, yeah, so that's been their primary approach. And again, with Region Midtjylland, they have worked. Really hard to bring teams from each of the five hospitals together. So they've developed a, like a small sub network as they all work within the same organisation at the different hospitals, similar to like a regional trust here in the UK.
Bringing the clinical leads and the green champions together in regular network meetings has meant that an. Opportunity that's identified in one hospital, another team in another hospital can go, oh yeah, we can do that too. So it's been very much been that kind of sharing [00:32:00] consideration and talking about the, the logistics and the changes and what can only be achieved at one ward and what other initiatives can be achieved right across the organisation.
That's really interesting, kind of the variations of what other hospitals might be able to pick up as a result and what other people might kind of look at and go, that's a really interesting project, but it can't quite relate to this setting. Yeah,
yeah. And, and similarly in some of the discussions, the we've had, 'cause as the point of contact, I have monthly meetings with, with each of the partners, even sharing intel and practise.
So for example when I met with the. Danish project lead. They were talking about an initiative where they were looking at changing a device in a particular clinical procedure within a maternity setting. And I was like, oh my God. Like we don't do that procedure in the UK. That's kind of like been completely phased out.
So even having that conversation about standards in care delivery that's now. Prompted discussion within [00:33:00] their organisation whether to continue or whether to look at evidence from the UK that they could follow. And again consider that care pathway, not just the actual product.
That's absolutely brilliant.
How do we optimise care at all costs? Yeah, that's brilliant. Imogen, kind of reflecting on us within the UK or us even within our, just our hospital, have there been some like unexpected challenges that you think we've seen here or points of resistance when we've tried to implement changes?
Yeah, I think, I think one of the most surprising things to me, especially in Born Green, but also some of my prior experience in sustainability, some things that you think would be really simple that you don't even anticipate to be a challenge.
Suddenly you think, how? How is this so tricky? And I think one of those is. Is the procurement system in the sense of sometimes you think, okay, I'll find out X piece of data to find out we are looking at this product. Can we get this data for this? And I think sometimes you think that should be an easy task, but actually there's so [00:34:00] much that goes on around it that it's not actually as easy to get that raw data or there's across different.
And it's just trust. For example, they might gather that same data in different formats. So actually then you, you come off with a whole load of different elements of data that you've got to try and triangulate to try and get the same sort of truth across them all. So I think actually just the procurement and getting evidence or.
Being able to set metrics to be able to track progress is actually a lot harder than you think. Well that's certainly been my experience anyway. And I think, yeah, that's, that was quite surprising to me. Maybe that's, 'cause I hadn't had a huge amount to do with procurement up until this point, but that was a real sort of eye opener that you think it would be quite straightforward process and it isn't.
And again, and I think the other bit is sometimes maybe that not, I think. I don't wanna say resistance, but like the engagement factor. I think a lot of people, when you talk about what, what we're doing or some of the initiatives, you get a lot of, oh, that sounds really exciting. You get all the words to say yes, but then there's no, they talk the talk, but then there's no walk, the [00:35:00] walk that then follows it.
And I think sometimes when you, when you are met with such enthusiasm, you think, great, I've got an army with me, let's carry on. But then actually getting that to then move into the next stage is actually really. Tricky because those other priorities creep back in. And I know as a, as a critical care nurse, I feel, I know how busy it is to be a nurse on the shop floor trying to fit in X, Y, and z, do firefighting on a daily basis and actually thinking about, oh, how, how do I reevaluate this pathway?
For instance, feeding isn't gonna be at the forefront of my mind, but actually I think it's really kind of really solidified for me, like the thought that actually. I think as nurses, I'm speaking from my experience, I'm sure Jo, as a midwife, you might feel the same, that you feel quite guilty if you take a step a second out of that sort of busy day to think about what you're doing.
And I think that was one of the, sort of the, the challenges or it's not resistance, but I think it's a challenge that actually we don't, I. As healthcare professionals, don't always prioritise that time to step away and have that broader thinking time to think about how can we make this change or how can I make [00:36:00] these steps implemented into my practise area?
Because that thinking time, if we're not right there, doing something actively for the patient in that moment feels. It's almost that guilt, and I think that's something that I always had, but it's only, so I'm now reflecting on it that you're like, wow, that was actually a real bit of, for me personally, a big bit of a big challenge to make, to make a change is that you kind of feel guilty for doing so, even though, you know, the benefits in the long term will be more beneficial, but it just doesn't feel, doesn't always sit quite right.
So I think, yeah, those are some of the surprising resistance bits. I don't know if Alice, you've had any other experiences about that.
Yeah, I do. I completely know what you mean. And I think it's one of the reasons that roles like what you guys are doing are so vital because it means that there can be people in the background who are making these changes happen and then helping to support the ward areas.
And yeah, it just, I don't, I think it would be unfeasible without it.
I think we've been really privileged to have that support of Healthcare without [00:37:00] Harm Europe to be able to do this and all the people in the background, all our sponsors and stuff that are allowing us this space to make these changes and changes.
I think that probably you are right, you only necessarily see as a clinician. This is real bottom-up change and I know Healthcare without Harm Europe are doing that snowball effect beyond it. But what we are looking at is really that bottom-up aspect, isn't it? Jo looking, thinking about that kind of bottom-up change beyond 2026, beyond where we're at with this project, how will this look?
And how are you hoping that other hospitals will take on this journey? And are you seeing like a strong engagement from other hospitals? What will that look like? And how can people join in with this movement?
Yeah. So with our four partners some of the initiatives that everyone has been implemented and reporting back to us, it's, we've already kind of got [00:38:00] that proof of concept now that from everything that either has been implemented or is still in that process, from the reports that we receive, that across these far organisations the initiatives have.
Removed over a hundred thousand devices and which equates to 5.6 tonnes of plastic that have been removed. And I'm not talking about just the waste stream. They haven't even entered into the wards. And that's just in what's been reported or projected for a 12 month period. So. Some of the swaps, it's not just that it's only gonna be happening for 12 months, but hopefully the, the plan, the intention is that this will stay like the normal practise for next year, saving another five times next year and the following year and the following year, and then as well thinking about those decision makers and getting the people on board.
And that's the part we need to also consider the. Kind of political landscape that we're in right across healthcare across Europe right now. And there is so [00:39:00] much pressure being put on teams at all levels to be more financially savvy. So then also considering that these initiatives have saved the four partner organisations, nearly 300,000 Euros, it is another way of saying that this is not only sustainable for the environment. It's not only removing those EDCs and exposure risks, but it is also financially sustainable for hospitals. I. Yeah. And across the four partners, I know that there is still 15 more initiatives and innovative practises that were, that are being explored and are being scoped.
So the potential is absolutely phenomenal. So right now it's really. As I say, we've got that proof of concept now and we're at the point of looking for that growth and for other organisations to join. So right now we're just a really exciting point of growing bond green generation, beyond our four partners.
So from everything that we've learned centrally from each of the partners from these best [00:40:00] practises, these changes, but also the challenges and the barriers where we've devised an implementation toolkit. And we are about to start a fast follower programme, so inviting other hospitals to join the initiatives and to sign up and they will have access not only to this toolkit of resources, that includes an assessment toolkit which helps prioritise which products to consider.
In your clinical area. And then additional resources and a training package for clinicians, not only about BGG, but also it includes sustainability as a whole in healthcare how it fits into any net zero decarbonization plans what circularity in healthcare actually means. All those considerations.
One of the biggest barriers some of the like IPC myths that also accompany the narrative around introducing reusable products and circular practises. So yeah, so at a really exciting time [00:41:00] and we're very much open to anybody who, anybody else who wants to join this movement as.
As, as a fast follower and details are available on our website, which is phone green generation.org. And yeah. And then for anybody who registers their interest, we do an outreach and look at the potential of, again, think reflecting on our current four partners of the size, the capacity what could actually be achieved, and how we can support that centrally and another.
Really important aspect of that is connecting everybody, setting up that bond green generation network of we've sat found so valuable between the four pilot partners. Then for all these additional organisations, some of whom. Are right at the beginning of their sustainability journey. They've done nothing but they want to do something.
And we're there to help empower them. But then we've also got other organisations who have already done some phenomenal massive initiatives and is [00:42:00] central to their sphere of practise. What can we learn from them? What have they implemented? What have they developed and, and changed that we haven't even considered?
So it is absolutely that opportunity to connect and to learn from each other.
I love that. It, it makes me think about a talk I heard from a Canadian sustainability network just last week, and they'd highlighted something like 250 different projects that they'd seen out there and just thinking, wow, there's so much that we can all do and take that lesson, those lessons from each other.
And I, for one, feel like a success. For me of this project is, is what you say. It's, I've, I've spent a year now, you know, I've only been a part of it for this short period of time, but really just learning the how's and the barriers and how would I overcome that. And I just wanna share that with others.
Mm-hmm. So that we can snowball this effect and, and really take [00:43:00] pace. Imogen, what would that look like for you as the future? What do you think success would be for the project?
I think success for the projects is that if you could like on a, it probably wouldn't be in the next like few years, but if you could have that, I would describe it as carbon literacy, but like born green generation literacy, if you could go onto the, onto any ward in any sort of healthcare environment and you could talk, someone could talk about what the health impacts are of microplastics and toxins and ask them about how they advise.
Patients or communities of being able to make changes that would make their health and wellbeing better for the future. That would be success. Imagine? Yeah. If you could go on the ward and you could get a good, people feel confident to give an articulate answer and the things that they've changed or advise like the health promotion of their patients and communities, I think that would be the most amazing success because that at that point, born green isn't a movement.
It's an embedded way of life at that point. It's not a movement. It's, it's the normal for us. I [00:44:00] think that would be my. Lovely ideal vision of what success would be.
I love that. Again, you're coming back to those planetary boundaries. Sustainability is more than carbon. I love it. Alice, how about you?
I'm not sure I can top that answer to be honest.
I love, yeah, I absolutely a hundred percent agree and would love that to be a reality. I think it's about empowering staff, isn't it? No matter what your job role, everybody can make a difference and yeah. It's exciting what's happening. We're seeing lots of projects underway. It's exciting to hear everything that's been achieved already.
And yeah, it's giving me and hopefully the listeners a lot of enthusiasm to continue all this fantastic work.
That sounds like a good place to wrap it up guys, thank you so much for joining me today. It's really been lovely to chat through the project with you and, and see where we could end up and hopefully we'll get many more people looking up how they can join in.[00:45:00]
I would say thanks guys.
